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lol matrix got pwned hard

@sir it's not like they got pwned because of flaws in matrix... they got pwned because of sysadmin mistakes and jenkins vulns...

@stavros aye, down with innovation. Stop trying to "innovate" in chat, you're ruining it!

@sir What do you like aboit irc? I honestly don't understand

@biosmarcel simple, good enough protocol, broad support from clients & servers & bots, fast and stable networks, no bullshit like reaction emojis and crap, etc

@sir I like discord simply because I get all the useful features. Even though not open source and has a bad electron app.

However, great botsupport, you dont need to do anything in order to see past messages on your next login, you have voice calls, video calls screen sharing, file sharing and whatever not.

I dont see irc as something that you'd wanna use every day.

Looking at your livestream site for example, irc is a perfect fit though.

But usually its the wrong tool I think

@biosmarcel voice calls, video calls, screen sharing, and file sharing are all anti-features. IRC is good because it doesn't have those. And I have used it every day for 15+ years

@sir How are those anti-features? I find them genuinely useful.

@biosmarcel I don't want to use any of those when I'm on IRC. I don't want to listen to your voice, I want you to say what you have to say on the message. Limiting all of the participants to plaintext is a good thing, it normalizes the conversation and keeps it async. And I can listen to music rather than someone's dumb voice on a 92kbps stream

@biosmarcel hop on mumble to voice chat. Jitsi to screen share or video chat. Solve all problems and you end up solving them poorly, solve one problem and you might solve it well

@sir @biosmarcel All of these are cool, but try convincing your average joe friends to install 3 different programs and setup an IRC bouncer and whatnot, when there's one program that """just works""".

Good onboarding/UX for non-tech people is a huge problem and Riot+Matrix was a nice step into the right direction, even if their protocol and/or server-admins weren't exactly the best in town.

@sn0w @biosmarcel I don't really want to talk to your average joe friend

@sir @biosmarcel Yeah i guessed so. All I'm saying is that Discord and similar companies probably wouldn't be as big as they are today if we had a client that wraps VoIP and IRC with chat history into something that works and looks nice.

@sir @sn0w @biosmarcel
the thing is, some people who have average joe friends do want to talk to them.

You may not have average joe friends whom you want to talk with, and that's fine, and maybe in your usecase IRC is all that's needed.

But other people have different usecases, and in those usecases IRC may not be satisfactory. It may even be a worse option than matrix.

@sir @sn0w @biosmarcel
So you can either accept that other people will use something else, and that it'll be a valid and rational decision for them,

or you can try to understand their usecase and make IRC better suited for what they really need (as opposed to what they say they need, and as opposed to what you need).

Or you could make a new protocol from scratch.

I don't know which of them is correct.

But expecting others to use what you use w/o understanding their usecase is stupid.

@sir @sn0w @biosmarcel
IOW:
If you don't care about my average joe friend, stop complaining that I use chat things that are not IRC.

(where "I" and "me" are a placeholders)

@Wolf480pl @sn0w @biosmarcel tbh I mostly just troll people in these discussions, because IRC naysayers are literally unable to listen to reason

@Wolf480pl @sn0w @biosmarcel I understand their usecases and tbh: they work on IRC

@sir @sn0w @biosmarcel
>IRC naysayers are literally unable to listen to reason
[citation needed]

Also, by trolling like this you tend to look like some IRC fanatic that'll burn anyone who uses anything other than IRC. Which in turn may convince some undecided people to stay away from IRC. Which is not what you want I guess?

I would love people to stop using Discord and Matrix, but hosting a ZNC for everyone is kinda meh, and it's a pain to get your friends to configure their clients for ZNC.

I've came to regard @sir as a troll who's not worth debating. His motto is basically everything new is terrible, everything old is amazing, end of discussion & it honestly reeks of him trying to justify not having to learn anything he's not already familiar with.

Am sorry to say this, but a brief look at his blog & past posts + behavior here & on Hacker news shows this pattern pretty clearly.

I'd stay clear from feeding him.

@Wolf480pl @sn0w @biosmarcel

@MatejLach @sn0w @biosmarcel
I'm of an opinion that a large part of new things actually are terrible, largely because people ignore the past and reinvent the wheel without first studying the previous solutions and understanding what was right and what was wrong with them.

And I think @sir writes a lot of good software, software that's in opposition to todays JS-ridden mainstream, and is very much needed.

And even if he's writing it for all the wrong reasons, I think he's still doing sth good

@MatejLach @sn0w @biosmarcel
I've seen @sir have good, logical arguments in his blog posts, so I think his views aren't all that unfounded. But he doesn't want to engage in a logical debate, which is sad, because I think both him and his critics could learn a lot from it.

@Wolf480pl @sn0w @biosmarcel @sir

Sure, he's writing a lot of useful SW, but he also has an attitude toward it, (I’ll take my segfaults and buffer overflows.) that make me question if I ever want to use his SW.

And sure, today's Electron stuff is usually a hot mess, but that's not what Matrix is.

He also makes false, inflammatory claims like re: Rust "Attempts to integrate it with other build systems have been met with hostility from the Rust & Cargo teams." - which is flat out made up.

@Wolf480pl @sn0w @biosmarcel @sir

He's been ranting about how it's wrong for Go to try to adopt generics, (again, sounds like just old C coder whining). The argument wasn't even about what kind of generics etc, it was just generics == bad, no real argument.

That is not the kind of discussion am looking for, but everybody to their own.

@MatejLach @sn0w @biosmarcel @sir
That's not what he said, he said doing generics right is still an open problem, and more research is necessary before we find a kind of generics that is good enough to be engraved in language spec for ages.

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@sir @sn0w Sadly the majority of users are "average joes", therefore that's what the market is trying to deliver for, which I think is reasonable in a way. Ofc I'd prefer if everyone was trchnically versed and we had a nice set of applications that play together nicely and solve everything well

@sir ye I totally get that. But in the end, it just annoys my friends when I tell them to use X different applucations. And quite frankly, I like convenience as well. And I don't think it is impossible to solve all those problems in a good way. I do use mumble btw, same for jitsi :)

@sir @biosmarcel file sharing isn't an antifeature, and IRC has file sharing, it's just badly designed

@sir eh, I'm sure I've heard of IRC servers being hacked before. The issue was more of their particular setup.

@sir It's not uncommon to hear about IRC networks being downed by DDOS attacks: web.archive.org/web/2011072307

There's also a bunch of CVEs where some ircd implementations were vulnerable to being ddosed with certain inputs

@Normandy you do understand that DDoS attacks are an entirely separate problem right

@sir @Normandy well, you LOL for one server that was attacked and then you go on with a tirade about why IRC is better than Matrix. That's another pair of entirely separate problems. You're right to point out that IRC works well for you, but that has nothing to do with the security incident of matrix.org, I think.

@steko @Normandy my comments can hardly be characterized as a tirade

@sir @Normandy you're right, I chose the wrong word because I didn't know it has such an extreme connotation.

@steko @sir this is the whole point of the thread though.

@sir like I said the issue wasn't with matrix itself. It was a Jenkins exploit that allowed the attackers to SSH into the server.

Of course nobody in their right mind would put Jenkins and IRCd on the same server but if it were the case, it's not really like there is anything that would prevent such an exploit from affecting that server.

@sir Nice to know that no IRC server has ever had any security issues whatsoever ;^)

@sir and then, afterwards they got hit again, with matrix.org being redirected elsewhere.

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