@sir
correct me if im wrong but isn't your entire argument "people dont want to upgrade their 1980s hardware"

@tn5421 no. It's a feature that my IRC client runs in my terminal emulator and can't display images accordingly

@sir @tn5421 I don't think that we should reject advanced features only because they don't benefit all users equally. The TUI fallback example you showed seemed quite reasonable.

In fact with the right shell images and other rich media can be displayed in a terminal window.

@joe @tn5421 not only is this untrue but you missed the point of my article entirely.

@sir @tn5421 Which statement is untrue?

If your main point is that IRC should not attempt to emulate other chat protocols I agree with that. IRC has a useful place and it's own advantages, and those shouldn't be ignored.

@joe @tn5421 the latter point is untrue, it misses the mark in multiple ways. Your former point is what fails to understand the point of my article: these features have a social impact.

@sir @tn5421 I guess I really did miss the point of your article. :silly:

@sir
I'm not completely convinced.

Irc is slowly dying now and regaining new users is something which isn't possible now that many newer alternatives gained traction with their shiny features.

Inline content (image/tweets/videos/…) is one of these feature and frankly it's something fixable on the client-side. Glowing-bear does that pretty well without impacting the global irc ecosystem.
Irc lacks new shiny clients with this feature.

The lack of persistent logs is more problematic : people love it but it's something that shouldn't be fixed. It's a giant privacy/security hole.


I don't think irc can come back to its throne of the most popular instant messaging system. And frankly that's not so bad if the non-tech people never come back. But each time i see a floss comunity adopting Discord or Slack i just facepalm.
@tn5421

@lord @tn5421 I spoke about embedding media in my article, please read it. Also, I think that the lounge has the shiny clients part covered. And: IRC is dying is a myth, it's still got hundreds of thousands of users and isn't shrinking at an appreciable pace.

@sir
I never used the lounge but it looks modern enough to attract people but not so easy to install. I don't know if their hosted instance is reliable enough but it could be a really good client.

Concerning the death of irc… it's true. It's slow but it's trut : https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2019
Every network is slowing except freenode which is quite stable.
@tn5421

@lord @sir
What's most likely happening here is that freenode is getting an infusion of people from other networks while slowly bleeding regulars.

And the other servers are just dying.

@lord @sir
You still have to load it in your web browser, no fancy app shell like slack or discord offer.

other than that it's a nice upgrade to base irc

@sir so many people on irc use bouncers tho.. is that not an attempt to patch a problem with the ecosystem? or are those people also just “wrong”

@epicmorphism note that at the end of the article I aknowledged that IRC has problems. This is one of them. Universal access to bouncers is needed

@sir @epicmorphism
wouldn't universal access to bouncers actually bring the catching-up culture to IRC?

@Wolf480pl @epicmorphism I think we should use bouncers to give context, rather than an infinite backlog, and combine it with browsable/searchable logs in a separate place. Without threads as well I think that we avoid the magic intersection of utility which feeds the catching-up culture

@sir @epicmorphism
I think best logs are text logs on the client side, which I can grep offline. But then, if you have multiple computers, it gets complicated...

@Wolf480pl @epicmorphism I use ZNC's *shell extension so I can turn a PM window into a shell running on my bouncer. From here I can grep logs pretty easily

@sir @epicmorphism but this way you can't grep the logs when you don't have internet connection...

@sir @epicmorphism
I'd say, figure out how we decided $X should be coded, but I guess you'd reply that "how $X should be coded should've been discussed via email instead".

So I'll say: to reminisce.

Some people make photos of fun moments, so that they can later recall them and remember how fun it was. I don't take photos. Instead, I keep IRC logs. Then I sometimes remember that there was this nice chat we had 2 years ago, what was it exactly... then I grep the logs and find it, and read it, and enjoy it.

@Wolf480pl @epicmorphism imo topping up your local archive periodically would serve that purpose fine

@sir @epicmorphism and rsync a day I guess... sounds decent indeed.

@sir @epicmorphism
I claim that if I've seen something, I have the right to remember it. And if I have the right to remember it, then my computer should be able to remember it for me. Because human memory has some annoying failure modes.

@sir Bouncers generally solve the “multiple devices” problem as well, especially when the clients support IRCv3 extensions.

Mobile platforms in general are treated like shit by most of these shiny new alternatives, especially if you’re running something niche that isn’t Android or iOS.

You can pretty much bet that someone will write a good enough IRC client for them, though. Communi (the one for Sailfish OS which also has a desktop version) for example works really well on phone touchscreens and even supports a bunch of IRCv3 extensions as well as some ZNC-specific features for a much better experience with unstable connections.

Speaking of UI: Many of the shiny new things are really bad at handling many connections and channels. Virtually impossible to keep up with anything and most of all distinguish important notifications from unimportant ones. You can tell most of them were written by people working for adtech scumbags because most of them jump in your face like a terrier on Ecstasy to get your attention but then fail to tell you a) which conversation on which “server” triggered the notification b) how many messages have been written since the last time you have looked at that conversation. It’s like they’re engineered to waste as much of your time and attention as possible without getting anything done, which is extremely harmful for e.g. software engineers. In some cases you only get the desktop notification (which you might not even have allowed in your browser settings) and a sound effect but looking at the UI won’t show you what happened. All that stuff is hidden and you need half a dozen clicks or keypresses to get anywhere, whereas a good IRC client will simply present a channel list that has all this information at a glance, and allow you to quickly jump through active channels. With IRC, you don’t need notifications. A quick glance at the channel list will suffice, which works very nicely if you have your client on a second monitor. You still notice what’s going on in all the 50+ channels you’re in, but it’s much less distracting.

@sir I agree. All of the stuff people "want" can be implemented client side if they so desire, with the exception of history because that requires a bouncer.

@sir Didn't know about The Lounge, but I think IRCCloud has a similar client... plus paid hosting so you don't need to bother with your own IRC bouncer anymore (yay), and a willingness to evolve the IRC standard in more or less "graceful" ways to keep older/TUI/etc clients still working AFAICT (mostly they're part of the IRCv3 WG I think?)

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