Planned obsolecense must be made illegal

@sir Could be a bit tricky to define legally, but I don't see why it couldn't happen (at least in EU).

@emilis @sir just forcing them to sell spare parts and forcing source code release for unsupported software could go a long long long way.

@sir It should, but good luck describing what a planned obsolescence even is, precisely enough for an actually working law.

@gudenau laws are not about absolute proof, it's about proof beyond a reasonable doubt

@gudenau @sir Maybe require a minimal amount of time where a given piece of equipment must work optimally, and there's a liability if it doesn't.

@sir so you could say, someone drafting such a law would be planning to make planned obsolescence obsolete.

@zalandocalrissian @sir dunno why but to me this sounds like a very Lennart thing...

@sir But every TLS certificate expiration date is planned obsolescence, I'm quite sure you mean the right thing, but please be careful with such wishes, they may have unintended side effects.


> Planned obsolescence, or built-in obsolescence, in industrial design and economics is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so that it becomes obsolete (i.e., unfashionable, or no longer functional) after a certain period of time.

Which describes pretty much every certificate we use in cryptography. Just wanted to show the other side ;)

But I'm sure you had very different things in mind your mind when making the statement.

@sheogorath @sir your phone more or less bricking after two years is very much not the same thing as expiring a cryptographic certificate.

Either you know this and you're being facetious, or you don't know this and should probably read more about planned obsolescence before continuing in this discussion.


From the perspective of a technician, I fully agree with you, but ask someone of your financial department. I already had conversations with CEOs who asked if we can't get rid of certificate expiration because they consider it planned obsolescence.

So let's just be careful about how we bring up such statements to a broader public.


@sheogorath @sir Well, not all certificates are time-bombs (expiration is optional), and they are quite easily changeable.
The only software part where that might be applicable is Firefox extension manager, specially since they removed/are-removing sideloading.

Also are ICANN domains planned obsolescence?

@sir and people should have a right and ability to repair their devices.

@Ordoviz @sir It is... but you have to prove the defect is exclusively motivated by planned obsolescence, which is almost impossible. The constructor can always justify it with economic reasons (they can say they used cheap, fragile materials for economic reasons e.g.).

@sir Why should one dictate how things are made. This is a slippery slope.

Just don't buy crap. Or start your own grass roots movement to make shit that ain't shit. Like iOS and it's artificial CPU underclocking.

@deavmi because predatory businesses take advantage of ignorant consumers. Don't vitcim blame

@deavmi @sir Also, how can you not buy planned-obsolescence things when no one makes anything else

@sir I am a victim then too. But I can make a decision on what I buy.

@deavmi @sir The problem with this is that other people demonstrably still buy crap, en masse, and it shapes the direction of what's made until there's nothing but crap left to buy. See: current laptops, phones [...]

@pulledfromthewater @sir but surely there is the whole thing of making societal change rather than rehulatory.

Atleast that is my opinion on it. Free to hear yoursm

@sir At first sight it seems to me complex to define what would be considered the violating behavior.

A reasonable approach is requiring that the company explicitly states the amount of time it will provide software compatibility, security fixes and hardware parts.

However, the company may still choose to release new features only for newer products. And this seems unfair to forbid as this might restrict the development course or a business strategy whose fairness seems difficult to analyze.

I think helping people to notice the importance of open source/hardware support is the best way to go, although I think people would generally not care about this.

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