For fuck's sake stop using fucking Slack for your open source project, christ. Get it through your fucking skulls, Dudebros. This is some basic fucking shit.

not really. good project and all but it's slow and kinda sucks. it's also especially annoying when ppl use the matrix→irc bridge (as an irc user, that is).

just use plain irc for projects. a mailing list wouldn't hurt either.

@icyphox it is slow at the moment, but the protocol is evolving, and the default implementation is admittedly slow because it is in Python. Python is horrible for an I/O intensive project. Synapse will live alongside, but be superseded by Dendrite at some point I believe. Improvements are coming. If you use Riot, then that can also be a slow point. The project just needs time.

As someone who has used both side of IRC/Matrix, I do not have any problems with the bridge.

@sir slack is such a smoothbrain software

@EliteKonataFan @sir I still don't know how this is not a big red flag for anyone considering Slack for communication purposes. I hope remains a viable option for as long as $day-job keeps Slack around, that way I at least retain plain-text log files on my machine (and apparently includes "deleted" messages).

@tyil @sir it should do... on irc once you send a message, that's it, it's out of your control. I kinda like that. Maybe I should stop joining discords and become an irc extremist.

@sir, mattermost,, wire, hell, you could probably go with xmpp if you really wanted to.

I know some of these are paid, but they're open source, and that's what matters imo

@RyuKurisu @Gina @sir or go for a #Matrix community? Although I don't know if they are ready for that yet...

@phel @Gina @sir I'm on Matrix, so I guess they're ready? 🙂

@sir And also completely arbitrary. You can develop open source software on and using proprietary software. Not everybody drinks the FLOSS cool aid, and that's ok.

@Phaserune frankly, it's not. It's encouraging reprehensible behavior from these SV companies and reduces the pool of people who are willing to work with you, which directly reduces the reach and effectivness of your project. You're shooting yourself in the foot just to prop up evil megacorps.

@sir We have differing opinions on what constitutes an evil corporation. I believe there are evil ones out there, but simply making proprietary software doesn't default you to being one. I see a ton of value in open sourcing software, but to make it mandatory or you're a dirt bag is a kind of wack ideology I can't get down with no matter how it is spun. Now tell me your software is secure, private, or free (as in speech) and then there isn't an alternative, it has to be FLOSS.

@Phaserune expecting users to run your proprietary software on their own computers is unethical. Doing so because it makes it easier for you to slurp up and sell their data is extremely unethical. Likewise for shuttering APIs and chasing down third-party clients for users who just want to connect on old hardware or without signing over their privacy is unethical. Subverting existing ecosystems of free and open protocols and software with capital-driven questionable marketing tactics and exploitation is unethical. Hoarding user data - which belongs to the user, and not you - and then making them pay you to get it is unethical. Gaslighting open technologies by trying to redefine their terminology to include your proprietary replacements is unethical.

Slack and Discord have both done all of these things and more.

@sir That can be all true and I still am not swayed. The reason for that, is because as a software developer myself, I don't see any other profession in the entire existence of humanity willing to be so charitable. FLOSS zealots focus on programmers and not on any other industry with their zeal. If my plumber, for example, doesn't need to essentially teach me his trade, and give me his tools, and not pay for it, then why should I, as a default option have to? The plumber isn't evil.

@sir And furthermore, you can make propreitary software and do none of the things you cited.

@Phaserune my post is scoped to "don't use Slack for _open source projects_", you'll note

@Phaserune and it's also worth pointing out that the plumber's tools have a material cost, but sharing code does not.

@sir The very real material cost is time. Just like the time it took for the plumber to learn their trade and be a professional in it. The complexity of some software is beyond rocket science. People have poured their heart and soul into code. I see a very real and tangible material cost there.

@Phaserune aye, I'm not denying that there's a cost. But the cost does not justify the behaviors I enumerated in my post. If you disagree, then our moral frameworks are incompatible.

@sir I completely agree that the cost does not justify unjustly handling your customer or fellow human beings. We agree 100% We just don't agree that FLOSS is the only vehicle to do something about that.

@Phaserune there is a spectrum, and free software projects with free software dependencies and free software-driven communities are firmly planted on the far end of that spectrum. There are grey areas, but given that the far end is perfectly viable I'll be staying over there and encouraging others to do the same.

@sir @Phaserune I think proprietary software is *almost* unethical, in that it creates an inherent and irreparable power imbalance that is almost always exploited by the proprietor of the software, which is why I refuse to use proprietary software given a choice.

@sir However, I now better see the framing for your comments on Slack and open source projects. It makes more sense to me now.

@Phaserune @sir very very few other industries have the ability to create effective monopolies on their largely oblivious customers on the back of gov't enforce copyright-based artificial (arbitrarily made up) property rights. Software is the anomaly, not the rule.

@Phaserune @sir (and I say that as a professional fulltime dev with 26 years experience :) )

@Phaserune @sir

your plumber does the job, you pay her, then that's it

she doesn't charge you rent on the U trap in perpetuity

@deejoe @sir then subscription software services are the problem, not the proprietary nature of the software.

@Phaserune @sir Slack is objectively garbage-tier in communication. And the company behind it is doing the standard tricks of luring people in, then changing terms and functionality to force worse conditions on its users. *In addition to that*, it's also closed source.

@Phaserune @sir I disagree quite strongly with that statement. Proprietary is inherently less ethical and should be deprecated.

@sir even if we ignore the ethics of slack and it's business model of ransoming history. The interface for slack is so slow and takes up way too many resources for what it does. It's not that helpful for productivity anyways compared to other options.

@sir I've had issues with software and some recommendations that aren't commit or issue worthy that couldn't get to the developers for this reason. The cell phone requirement that everyone thinks so little of is really painful for someone who doesn't have one yet still needs to use the internet. Not to mention the other issues which make Slack, etc. literally unusable for me.

@sir Fair. Well, there are a few open source alternatives. Is there one in particular you like best?

@stevefoerster @sir Steve, you could always join us on our Rocket.Chat to see how the free folks live :) -

@sir Because of the retention problem or something else?

Sorry for being off topic, I'd be interested to learn of your insight about the use of Telegram for communications by open source projects. I haven't been able to find much discussion on the subject. Personally I'm baffled.

BTW I'm 100% with you regarding Slack. At work the boss tried to implement it but he failed, thankfully. (We're not an IT company)

@jordan31 @sir both are just as bad or worse, due to their proprietary nature and eschewing open standards at ever opportunity.

@sir couldn't agree more. I even wrote about it a few years ago when I started noticing this trend:

At the time (on the post) I gave the benefit of the doubt to Discord, but nowadays I think that, in the presence of better and open alternatives, it is a bad choice for this use case, just like Slack.

@dethos @sir the main difference, is I don't think a proprietary option can be viable: its terms can be changed (and made evil) unilaterally at any point by its proprietors, and as such, it is unwise/unsafe for any community to use/develop a dependency on.

@sir IRC didn’t seem to keep evolving though. Things like multimedia support, authz, and mobile-friendly connections never really emerged. I say this as a huge IRC fan and user since 1998.

Matrix seems like the best compromise IMHO

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