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Common complaint: "I can't read the backlog in IRC"

Discussions over the water cooler aren't logged either but no one seems to be asking to install a microphone in the breakroom

If you feel the need to catch up on discussions you missed (which people haven't explicitly called your attention to), your team is using real time messaging wrong. IRC is ephemeral by design, summarize discussions in email, docs, etc if they need to live longer

@sir @Wolf480pl Yeah, that's why I am both not using IRC/ephemeral messaging, and I don't think I should be using it. (Or rather I use it only when forced because other people use only it)

That being said from user perspective it's simple - if I can have a tool with which can do everything I need it for, or I can have a "tool" that does one thing, and even that not particularly well... (IRC on unstable network is also unusable, and since most networks tend to be unstable at times, you will never know when writing a message if it actually reached your target - neither if you have read all messages targeted for you to read. You can have really awkward conversation, where someone just didn't see one of the messages and no way to even detect said situation.

Backlog isn't a tool you use only to see what happened two weeks ago. Backlog can be useful literally at time of the conversation)

Even if I forget for a moment that IRC is bad even at things it's specifically designed for. We don't live in ideal world where everybody has chat tools for specific needs.

People simply have accounts and communicate with other people who use same network. If two people have accounts with same tools, they simply choose preferred way of communication and use it.
People who use only IRC are just unavailable, and hard to talk to.

@glaurungo @sir @Wolf480pl

>IRC on unstable network is also unusable

Bouncers like ZNC exist for that purpose, alternatively you may run Weechat inside tmux on a server.

@cuniculus @sir @Wolf480pl
If a tool requires a different tool to be used, then it's not particularly good tool.

Honestly I find glorifying IRC ephemeral messaging a bit insincere in a world where everybody either uses a bouncer, or at least their client saves logs anyways.

Beyond that - if you're a server administrator, and have resources and knowledge, then those are things you can use. But if you were to put yourself in new user shoes, then requiring such a setup is a mortal wound to tool's usability.

@glaurungo @cuniculus @Wolf480pl "if a tool requires a different tool to be used, then it's not a particularly good tool"

- Guy who hammers in nails using the handle of his screwdriver

@glaurungo @sir @Wolf480pl
- There have been history (as in few minutes/lines of backlog on joining) extension on IRC for years, some of them are part of IRCv3.
- There have been stuff like bouncers or screen/tmux/dtach/headless-weechat for years too
- There is stuff like IRC logging bots for the part which is more about archiving

@lanodan @sir @Wolf480pl That more or less makes me think "yeah, I want those things done properly, and neatly packaged with base software - so I probably want to use something other than IRC, exactly because I can just open it and have working setup"

@lanodan @sir @glaurungo
have you tried getting a someone who isn't already a Unix nerd to use IRC? From my experience, they join, talk a bit, then disconnect, and never come back.

I'm already exerting that person's patience, how the heck am I supposed to teach them about all this stuff like irssi in screen or logging bots?

@Wolf480pl @lanodan @sir
It might be fine if they were getting something awesome in return, with special features they wouldn't get anywhere else.

But as much as being decentralized and simple is nice, that's not nearly enough to go from half-working software to working product.

@Wolf480pl @sir @glaurungo
>they join, talk a bit, then disconnect, and never come back.

And stay for only fucking 30 seconds so they never interacted with anyone.

Also there is no reason for IRC to not have better UX, see TheLoundge.
But you'll not change it from a chat thing that you put in the background and check from time to time but mostly idle on ~100 channels, that's a cultural issue.

@lanodan @sir @glaurungo
>And stay for only fucking 30 seconds so they never interacted with anyone.

Actually, in a some cases they stayed for like 10-20 minutes and interacted with other people and stuff. But they never came back.

@Wolf480pl @lanodan @sir could it be though, because they interacted with people, and not because they weren't happy about UX?

@Wolf480pl
It's already hard to try to convince a friend to use XMPP. Now maybe a client more user friendly instead of TUI would help them I guess?
@lanodan @sir @glaurungo

@rob @Wolf480pl @lanodan @sir @glaurungo
> hard to convince to use xmpp
> a client more user friendly
oh my phone battery

@mkf @rob @Wolf480pl @sir @glaurungo This seems to not be very popular in some places but: if a client is a ressource eater, it is user-hostile.

@lanodan @sir @rob @Wolf480pl @glaurungo can an XMPP client not keep a wakelock and keep the connection long-term idle?

@sir we use IRC since 1999 and I still have the logs. No, it's not ephemeral at all. All clients I know do better logging than all that slack sh.... Let alone the possibility to have bots. IRC bots are smarter than AI :)

@rigo 's bucket has probably passed the turing test by now

@sir true, but that requires discipline a lot of people don't have

@sir yes, we should treat chat as ephemeral, but the lack of backlog makes it hard to switch machines and keep up with a chat. Or deal with reboots. Or put my laptop to sleep. All these are use patterns people expect to work that backlogs help with.

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