Many times, I've seen arguments made like this: "I'd try Mastodon, but I already have Twitter followers", or "I'd like to use OSM, but Google Maps has better data for my city", or, in my case, "I'd like to use, but GitHub has better discoverability".

Platforms for which popularity improves the utility of the service are skewed in favor of the incumbents. New platforms face a chicken-and-egg problem. You have to decide - will you help it, or exacerbate it? Those are the only two choices you have.

Don't let that cool new platform die in obscurity while you wait for it to become popular.

@sir [conlang that actually works] is cool and all but all my friends are using English

@ben @sir

Esperanto should be the international language so we will all equally not be native speakers. Or Qyena.


@d599f84e @sir When I hear "path-dependence", I either think of a homotopy, or of e.g. an action functional (as in the principle of least action), definitely not something humanitarian.

@sir I really don't get the discoverability angle on GitHub! I tend to use DuckDuckGo, and couldn't care less where projects are hosted.

@alcinnz @sir There are IT professionals (not programmers themselves, but the managers) who confuse GitHub and Git.

@alcinnz @sir P.S. Generally speaking, GitHub+LinkedIn is a big scam of MS et al., where people fork projects just to have some activity and are hired for just that. Ugh, but.

@alcinnz @sir P.P.S. To add more on the subject matter, while I used to praise GitLab, and even sorta maintained profile "for discoverability", after digging up the process of setting up the CI & CD (runners etc.), seeing them recommending things like curl | bash etc. etc., I've became way colder towards them, even without the politics and (PL) religion.

@alcinnz @sir there is also the friction to having to sign up to individual self-hosted forges. I often find I don't go through the hassle, when I just want to leave a constructive comment, set a follow, or even place a star on the repo.

Therefore I encourage all to have a look at #ForgeFed and the #feneas forum. They want to make forges part of the #fediverse and - among others - allow you to sign in with your own account.

@amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir
re: Linkedin .. it is a pity that the #ActivityPub project CloutStream is stopped. It was proposed as a federated alternative to linkedin.

Maybe someone wants to pick that up again someday (though having CV on your own personal website also works fine).

See the AP watchlist 'Dead' category:

@humanetech @amiloradovsky @sir Personally, I'm prominantly asking people to email me any such feedback/contributions. I'll accept toots too!

You can publish your git forks to any forge you want, or send me git patch files. Whichever you find easiest.

@humanetech @amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir this is the best solution, imo, and a natural fit for an already decentralized system: federate it! It shouldn't matter if a developer happened to start out in GH or GL or one of the other forges.

Of course, chances of the big players adopting (and opening up the garden walls) are slim to none, but one can hope. And todays de facto standard can be tomorrows wasteland - see freshmeat and sourceforge.

@doenietzomoeilijk @amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir I am not sure, but I thought on the gitlab front the outlook is good. And with the github API it should be possible to create some kind of proxy. There were some docs and discussion on this, but can't find it now. Maybe @forgefed can chime in..

IIRC on you don't need an account to comment on bugs or reply on mailing lists, all you need is an email address. There are even mailto: links to make it easier
@amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir

@wolf480pl @humanetech @amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir ohh that was going to be one of my questions. I dislike having accounts for everyone's personal self hosted forge

@jordan31 @wolf480pl @humanetech @alcinnz @sir Forges are mostly about the social aspect than software aspect. Sure you can always e-mail the maintainers with your patches or link to your fork elsewhere, asking them to pull & merge it, no matter where it's hosted, as long as they have the access.

@wolf480pl @jordan31 @humanetech @alcinnz @sir Chit chat and discussions in general, also search and discoverability.
Everything that lays outside of just committing the code.

@amiloradovsky @jordan31 @humanetech @alcinnz @sir
I don't think github or gitlab have much space for chit chat.

There are issues, but those are meant for on-topic discussion and working together towards solving a problem.

As for search, couldn't you use generic web search engines for that purpose as well?

@wolf480pl @jordan31 @humanetech @alcinnz @sir "Chit chat" was a bit tongue-in-check, but there are definitely less topical discussions and content, on GH in particular.

Generic search engines' first results aren't always about the software projects, also the cross links (mentioned this in there), etc.

Anyway, maybe the most important function the forges provide is CI & CD, even if the discussions may be held elsewhere.

@amiloradovsky @jordan31 @humanetech @alcinnz @sir
IMO CI can be easily an external service. You can even have multiple CIs for the same project and it doesn't cause much of a problem, because CI tends to be stateless.

IMO what matters is a source repository, a bug tracker, and something for patch submission/review.

@wolf480pl @amiloradovsky @jordan31 @alcinnz @sir indeed; if CI is integrated it will only create vendor lock-in. See GH Actions.

@humanetech @wolf480pl @jordan31 @alcinnz @sir Yes, modularity and interoperability of different providers of the modules is desirable.
There just has to be an interface to pick up the build statuses from the farm, and draw appropriate signs next to the place where the changes/patches are submitted for review.

@amiloradovsky @humanetech @jordan31 @alcinnz @sir
if you had a generic way for a CI to post a comment/status on a change, I think it could be easily generalized to also allow bug tracker to post issue links on changes, and code-review things to post change links on issues.

@wolf480pl @humanetech @jordan31 @alcinnz @sir I've been recommended git-bug, which is quite ironically is developed on GH though.

@humanetech @wolf480pl @jordan31 @alcinnz @sir Speaking of integration again, I was also wondering how hard it would be to bring, #Zulip, and #SourceHut together?

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@humanetech @alcinnz @amiloradovsky @sir @jordan31 @wolf480pl I had a quick look at git-bug the other week, especially because it has bridges to the popular centralized services, so it could potentially be used for backing them up and gradually moving away from them. And it has an email bridge for the final step! Its own publically-hostable web UI is coming soon (currently the web UI is for local use).

Unfortunately it doesn't seem *quite* there. I got some duplicates when using the bridge in two clones.

But it's really early days, R/W to GitLab was only added like last month or so. It's looking like a really cool project already and I'm sure this will be ironed out.


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@wolf480pl @jordan31 @humanetech @alcinnz @sir It all is easy to provide in separation, what is special about forges is the integration: the results of CI are shown next to the MRs/PRs, and the commits mentioning the issue are shown under the issue, and so on and so forth.
I don't know how to characterize it concisely.

Speaking why GH is so dominant, it's definitely not any particular feature(s), but simply the inertia. Unwillingness to take any further actions. Most of the developers of projects hosted on there simply don't give a damn about the "ecology".

One can easily push to multiple repositories at once or mirror them, what won't be synchronized is the issues, wiki, CI badges may need some extra efforts too.

@amiloradovsky @wolf480pl @humanetech @alcinnz @sir after a little comment browsing I'm leaning towards mirroring my stuff to source hut and gitlab. ATM I use bare repos which I like, but need a public facing repo.

@jordan31 @wolf480pl @humanetech @alcinnz @sir SourceHut/ is pretty good, much cleaner as outside as inside than GitLab. It only needs more projects using it, to gain the critical mass.
If you still miss something from GitLab though, and can't/don't want to self-host, better use FramaGit than

> If you still miss something from GitLab though, and can't/don't want to self-host, better use FramaGit than

Depending on the nature of your project, there are many, many options other than GH,, or self-hosting. Some examples:

@jordan31 @wolf480pl @humanetech @alcinnz @sir

@jordan31 It's similar for me, except I have a CGit web interface so you can navigate the code online.

Are you doing anything for issue tracking? I'm placing markdown files in an ISSUES directory, and am finding that's working better for me. It certainly integrates into git better!

@humanetech @amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir i dislike forges in general, i think its an antipattern. if i cant commit with git + email then thats already a huge setback
@humanetech @alcinnz @amiloradovsky @sir forges make more sense with centralised development. git's intent is a decentralised vcs. people can go to svn or something if they want something centrally-hosted and managed

@wowaname @sir @alcinnz @humanetech You still need something besides git and e-mail, for reviewing the proposed changes/patches, and keeping track of the issues.

Although the particular issues and change-sets may be addressed not by just their number, but also qualified with the host/user.
GitLab does this already (turning the mentions into the links), but there is no reverse linking / "mentioning of mentioning" across servers.

Another issue with cross-commenting is possibility of spam (remember how vulnerable Fediverse is for it?).

> there is also the friction to having to sign up to inividual self-hosted forges

This is one of the advantages of #SourceHut over most of the other forge platforms (Savannah, GH, GL, #GitTea, etc), you can interact with some aspects of a repo just by sending email, without needing an account on the server. After all, an account on a website just means that you're (probably) a human with a working email address.

@amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir

@amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir politics and religion, I must have missed something about gitlab.

@jordan31 @alcinnz @sir I meant their top telling their women what to wear, and by PL religion I meant my aversion of Ruby.

@amiloradovsky I've used Gitlab's CI quite a bit (we self hosted GitLab at my last company). I've never had to run/maintain Gitlab CI, but I remember at that particular shop, the upgrade process was painful and required some downtime. I've heard maintaining a company or self-hosted install isn't that great. I don't have experience admining it personally though. Currently I'm a Jenkins admin at my shop, but our code is still on GitHub (paid/teams, but not enterprise). @alcinnz @sir

@djsumdog @alcinnz @sir Setting up GL CI/CD is PITA, IME.

But I haven't even tried self-hosting, so can't compare.

> seeing them recommending things like curl | bash

Huh? These are basic tools.
@alcinnz @sir

@dwaltiz @sir @alcinnz @strypey Sure I can download the script first (with wget, not curl). And review it. But the scripts may be not easy for that, and most importantly, many wouldn't even bother. This is how you give your computing resources away to the spammers.

@strypey @alcinnz @sir Static ELF binaries are also pretty basic, so what?

I just prefer to have an instructions for humans, and not only a magic script to run.
Plus, the script's OS detection and URL composition algorithms are not straight-forward. Why can't I have just an explanation what to download and where?

@amiloradovsky @sir @alcinnz @strypey

It seems to me that if an install script's OS detection and URL composition algorithms are complicated, an English description of them would be similarly complicated, and much more prone to error when followed. Then again, when the script doesn't work, figuring out what to do is often painful.

@billstclair @alcinnz @strypey @sir I doubt it. They use complicated tests to detect what OS I'm running. But I already know it myself. Just give me the link where to download the package for that OS/version.

@amiloradovsky @alcinnz @sir project forks happen so much because its how github's stupid pull requesting works. forked projects' master branches may have "even" or "behind x commits" while there may be one or more feature branches hidden away, because thats the only way PRs work on there
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