The best way to learn how to pronounce sounds from a foreign langauge is to consider the mechanics of making that sound. If you can shape your lips correctly, open or close your teeth the right amount, put your tongue in the right place, engage or disengage your voicebox, constrict or loosen your windpipe, and transition between these states correctly, you will make the sound.

Example: to say the notoriously difficult "r" sound in Japanese (eg. り "ri"), start by saying "leader". In English you really press your tongue against the roof of your mouth, but the mechanical change to make a り sound is to barely engage your tongue at all. It should touch against the roof of your mouth very very lightly, barely at all.

Also worth noting that every sound in $language_a is different from every sound in $language_b, even if some of them are very similar. If you like working on getting pronounciation just right (like me!) you should capture the nuances of each sound, particularly for vowels.

I'm personally not satisfied with being intelligible, I want to be right

@sir I tried a paid course a bit back that the goal was to basically make you aware of exactly what was going on inside your mouth when you talked, then have you think of and implement the sounds of languages in terms of that. Basically manually making the sounds until they became automatic. It was pretty neat.

AFAIK, most of the time even native speakers can't agree on pronunciation. There are different dialects and accents, depending on which part of the country the person comes from. There is no single "right".

@sir good luck with that, some languages have sounds you can barely hear apart, let alone pronounce correctly (or maybe after 10 years of daily use).
Goes for all languages, including english for myself.

@sir the best way to learn how to do a hand stand is to consider the mechanics of standing on your hands. If you can stand on your hands you will do a handstand.

@hyphen sarcastic but consider that how most people are taught is by telling them to say a particular sound from another langauge which is similar, then listen to a recording of the target sound, then be told they're wrong and to do it over and over again until they get something approximately resembling the target sound.

@hyphen I've seen very, very few language learning resources which straight up say "this is where your tongue goes when you make this sound" and so on.

@hyphen @sir > implying that this picture can make you pronounce front r
@tija @sir theres point 2 in THREAD which is phonetic training
@tija @sir tija-san I can roll my R's like a dyke~

@hyphen @sir was once watching a Korean historical fantasy. Someone was being taught to read Hangul. A character claimed, "our emperor made it easy! Make your mouth like the letter looks". "Another document called the Hunmin Jeong-eum Haerye ... explains how the consonants were designed after the shapes the mouth makes when saying the letters while the vowels were designed after the principles of yin and yang." Impelled me to try learning Hangul, for sure!

@nergal @hyphen hangul is very cool, it's easily the best writing system I've ever heard of

@hyphen @sir I was struggling to remember what "^W" meant |:

@nergal @sir ctrl-w is mostly associated with web and closing a tab/window, but was used in (virtual?) terminals to cancel one word back.
@nergal @sir s/was/is/ I think bash uses it if you suppress your wm shortcuts (if you happen to have C-w mapped to close window)
@nergal @sir no wait correction: it *is* supposed to be handled by shell, not the terminal

@hyphen @nergal yes and no

The shell cannot tell your window not to close. The terminal can prevent that.

The terminal sends Ctrl+H as an ASCII backspace (BS, 0x08), and the shell interprets that as delete the last character - in RAW mode.

In line editing mode, which most shells use, the TTY subsystem handles ^H instead, and buffers the line to send to the shell after the next LF from the terminal.

Terminals are complicated.

@nergal well there you have it lol

@sir > Terminals are complicated.
this tbh

@hyphen I was going to post how this is somehow based on ASCII control characters ... but I don't think that it is, and in fact I'm not sure HOW ^W got to de delete word. Though it's actually handled in the terminal driver, not shell, AFAIU.

This thread ... gets close:

@sir @nergal

I thought ^W is handled by readline.
It's clearly based on Emacs keybindings
@hyphen @sir @nergal

@sir @hyphen The ones I remember getting actual explanation on in school were the two th sounds in English, and the nasal vovels in French. Mind, it's been a while so I may be forgetting stuff.

@sir yeah but big part of it is actually doing the physical training not just being aware of how your voice turns into words. Without training you'll surely want to do x but fail with accuracy.

@hyphen I figured that was pretty obvious. You have to be able to feel the way the sound is made

@sir Learning IPA has been quite helpful to me in this regard.

most of the time it works. I can say it works when I'm learning or reading a new word in French that I never heard before, but sometimes you need a native speaker or a teacher to tell you the correct way to pronounce the word

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