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General-purpose operating system (Linux, BSD, Plan 9, etc)

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@sir

Fun-purpose operating system (TempleOS)

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@hj @sir Fugg I think that will be my new replacement to the "Welcome to GRUB!" message.
It's currently "Why is tenshi eating a corndog so cute?".

@lanodan @hj

<aiju> GRUB2 really is the emacs of bootloaders
<uriel> no, GRUB was the emacs of bootloaders, GRUB2 is the Eclipse of bootloaders

@sir @lanodan @hj
at least it's not the IntelliJ of bootloaders

@normandy @sir @lanodan @hj
hm... proprietary bloat that you cannot configure... let's see... UEFI/

@wolf480pl @sir @lanodan @hj I was thinking more in line with the Windows bootloader but that is a good one

@normandy @sir @lanodan @hj
meh, windows bootloader has basically no user-visible options

@wolf480pl @normandy @sir @hj I think the best bootloader I've seen is Plan9 one.
syslinux/lilo kind of bootloaders are nice too.

FreeBSD bootloaders joins GRUB as it has at least lua into it.
@wolf480pl @normandy @sir @hj I hate GRUB2 enough that I'm seriously considering writing my own bootloader.
@wolf480pl @hj @normandy @sir An Eclipse is an accurate description of GRUB2 because both of them will work fine 80% of the time in full automation, 15% is okay with few tweaks but the 5% left makes you want to throw the whole thing into mordor because of how uncontrollable and non-debuggable the thing is.

@lanodan @normandy @sir @hj
dunno, from my POV, GRUB2 will work in more cases than other bootloaders. Especially in weird cases. Sure, that may require messing around with the config, but it's better than "sorry, uefi boot from iso9660 is not supported"

@wolf480pl @normandy @sir @hj UEFI always sounded like a problem generator to me so I didn't mess with it yet.

@lanodan @normandy @sir @wolf480pl @hj

I had a very good experience with UEFI on multiple machines, without any bootloaders, by with installing the kernel into the esp/EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.EFI (the special removable drive path), and bundling a custom made initramfs into the kernel itself.

See: the CONFIG_INITRAMFS_SOURCE kernel config, and wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Custom_In for making your own initramfs.

I had static installs of busybox, lvm, and cryptsetup in the initramfs, and a tiny init script.

@lanodan @normandy @sir @wolf480pl @hj as far as I know it works on the extreme majority of UEFI machine, and it's extremely small and simple, which I like.

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@lanodan @normandy @sir @wolf480pl @hj

The init script:

```
#!/bin/busybox sh
mount -t proc none /proc
mount -t sysfs none /sys
clear

echo "Welcome to Red-Moon..."

cryptsetup open /dev/sda3 sda3_crypt || busybox sh
lvm lvchange -a ly red-moon || busybox sh
mount -o ro /dev/mapper/red--moon-root /mnt/root || busybox sh

umount /proc
umount /sys
exec switch_root /mnt/root /sbin/init || busybox sh
```

@lanodan @wolf480pl @hj @normandy @sir I have no quarrel with GRUB2 mainly because it works. Do I think it has more features than needed, yes. Do I think it's a rather complex beast, yes.
Haven't found anything that work better though (yes I'm old enough to have used lilo).
My view is often tinted by failure rates since I work in rather large environments. GRUB2 isn't on my "problematic" list.
I would replace it in a heartbeat if I can get something that has even lower failure rates and can drop a shell for recovery if needed.
@qrsbrwn @hj @normandy @sir @wolf480pl All bootloaders that I know of offer a prompt at boot, LILO is the only one I haven't used (because it doesn't seems better than say syslinux).

And yes, Grub works in a lot of cases but I'd rather not have to spend hours to days trying to figure out why the fuck it ends up in a sometimes broken Grub rescue and having to figure out wtf grub-install is actually doing. (much more than one would think it would do)
@lanodan @hj @normandy @sir @wolf480pl GRUB2 (and GRUB) has documentation that works rather well. While I remember that the GRUBs were rather hard to get a feeling for that time is long behind me.
I haven't seen it fail for many years except in the case of user error or hardware problems (which means other things failed not the bootloader).
I see that many others has a less than enjoyable experience though. That means it could probably be replaced by something simpler because as you said earlier GRUB2 is pretty much an OS at this point.

@qrsbrwn @hj @normandy @sir @wolf480pl documentation that works well?

Okay, /boot/grub/i386-pc/load.cfg what does it do, how does it work? :D

@lanodan @hj @normandy @sir @wolf480pl oh a pop quiz. I suggest you read up on what it does, I am not a search engine :D
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/grub.html <- here's s good start, let me know if you can't find what you seek.
Joking aside, I am not saying "y00 sux bcuz cnat GRUB" I mean "I haven't seen problems with GRUB in ages and therefore doesn't see it as problematic".
When I have needed to figure something out because I needed to fix something because someone was being a smarty pants the docs has served me well. And yes we have a few junior guys that are real chaos monkeys where I work. They will be awesome in 5 years but right now they tend to break things in spectacular ways (they also do good work between the breakages though).

@qrsbrwn how do you let them break things without causing lasting breakage?

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@qrsbrwn @hj @normandy @sir @wolf480pl I actually searched for what this one actually does.

Only things I found where stuff like FreeBSD forums with no solution.
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@wolf480pl @lanodan @sir @hj not the biggest fan of eclipse but GRUB 2 is fine in my book.
@sir @lanodan @hj that's harsh and not really accurate. Both GRUB and GRUB2 works.

@qrsbrwn @lanodan @hj "works" is not the metric by which I evaluate programs.

@sir @lanodan @hj well I'm a firm believer that "works" is a prerequisite for evaluation. This was mainly a stab at Emacs and Eclipse though.
@qrsbrwn @sir @hj works (specially as in "works on my machine") is the step 0 of a program.
@sir I wonder if Plan9 is general-purpose, I thought it was more of a research operating system...

@farhan @sir linux was a hobby kernel but nobody calls it that anymore

@farhan @sir and plan9 has not been a research operating system for almost as long as linux has not been a hobby kernel

@ky0ko @sir I cannot speak about Plan9, but ultimately systems being production vs hobby is up for determination by industry or pass personal usage.

The age of the family of unixes is well over.

@farhan @sir if commercial usage is your bar, you will find many more operating systems that meet that critera than you might expect

plan9 is used in commercial network storage solutions, lighting systems, cell phone towers, and more, and used to be used in large scale compute clusters

even haiku, which is still in beta and is arguably even less known, has found commercial use as an embedded os for high end audio mastering equipment

@ky0ko @farhan and commercial usage shouldn't be your bar, what a fucked up mode of thought. Capitalism is not the ultimate goal of the human experience

@sir @ky0ko I mean...I don't understand what you're saying. Systems are of 4 types:
1. Personal
2. Commercial
3. Governmental
4. Research/Hobby
If the vast vast majority of uses cases are not 1-3, its probably research/hobby.

@farhan @sir i'm curious: where does mac os x 10.4.11 fall into this

i use that operating system in 2020. it is not commercially viable, it is not used by governments. would you consider that a "personal" system?

what about sgi irix 6.5.22? i also use that on a regular basis, for real work that i do.

@farhan @sir ms-dos 6.22 with desqview/x is another os i use. i consider all three of these important targets for software i am currently writing (and i am being paid money to write some software for irix)

i don't think these really fall neatly into categories like that

@ky0ko @sir what is the vast majority use-case of MS DOS 6.22 in 2020?

@farhan @ky0ko ultimately, what is your point, anyway? That an operating system "doesn't count" unless it has some fraction of the market share? Who chooses the fraction? You? Or unless some businesses are using it? But only important business, as defined by you?

This is dumb, stop it

@farhan @sir @ky0ko What about gentoo which falls under the 4 of them at basically once?
@lanodan @ky0ko @sir To determine that, we go by the majority of its use-cases. I'm not having a philosophical argument about the discreet vs continuous and at what threshold X becomes Y. I'm using my definitions but at a level most people would intuit.

I don't see you disagreeing with me here. For example, if DOS 6.22 is used by 1000 people and 999 of them use it to play games, while 1 uses it to run an enterprise application, I would not call it an enterprise OS. Maybe you do. At which case we're arguing semantics...
@farhan @ky0ko @sir Use case share?

Oh dear, please, no.
That doesn't works without heavy telemetry/spyware.

Like what is Ubuntu?
@lanodan @ky0ko @sir If your argument is that the data is poor or unknown, then we're left with an open question. I don't see how that negates my point...

khayr, I don't understand why we (seem to be) getting worked up here, we're arguing semantics. If you don't agree, that's fine, its a matter of opinion.
@farhan @ky0ko @sir I just don't see how your classification even works in real life.
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