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Snap, Flatpak, AppImage, etc - are all attempts to make Linux more palatable to either proprietary software, or to software with reckless runaway complexity. Personally, I want neither, and will give no quarter to "solutions" for their "problems".

@sir also Docker.

They're all basically a means of shoving problems under the carpet.

@wolf480pl @sir I disagree. Docker has allowed me to get things running with such low overhead. If it ends up breaking, I can easily start over from scratch

@blueberry @wolf480pl I passionately hate you and I believe that your value to society is a net negative

@sir maybe people would take your arguments more seriously if you actually presented them instead of coming up with "witty" insults.

i'd argue that all systems of distributing software suck in one way or another (from traditional package managements, over curl-to-bash, installer.exe, appstores, language-specific package management, web apps, docker, appimage, …)

@blueberry @wolf480pl

@guenther @sir @blueberry
can't you see that he's not trying to convince anyone, he's just venting frustration and seeking validation?

@blueberry
- what things do you run with docker?
- why can't you just `apt install` (or equivalent) the same thing?

@wolf480pl

- A lot of different from github.com/awesome-selfhosted/
- I could do that, but it's such a pain to manage different php/sql/software versions. I'm no expert with Linux, so I end up just starting Linux from scratch. For example, uninstalling pihole used to not change /etc/resolv.conf back to normal resolvers, and it took me a long time to find that. With Docker, I could've just taken down the container and everything would just work

@blueberry sigh... there are reasons why pg_basebackup does more than just copying the database's data directory...

@wolf480pl I didn't know about pg_basebackup, but couldn't I just run a cronjob in the container and export the resulting files?

@wolf480pl I could, either through cron on the host or using something like Ofelia (github.com/mcuadros/ofelia)

@wolf480pl @blueberry this is why I prefer LXC. Get the low overhead of containers, as well as segmentation, but without the load of workflow limitation docker forces on you.

@sir
Fair point - the main reason why a package requires a specific set of old dependencies to be bundled along, is because the package is available only as a binary. See Steam or Spotify.

@csolisr @sir Software rot still is quite prevalent with source, specially with moving targets like Qt and GTK.

@sir one problem though is that small teams do this too, sometimes not even just out of cargo culting. it is kind of expected today that things are shipped using docker (or one of the other things). that the current mainstream linux distributions are pushing these things makes it even harder not to do it, as one has to additionally fight the ecosystem then, which not everybody has the time to do.
this doesn't make the whole situation better acceptable though.

@bonifartius "sometimes not even just out of cargo culting. it is kind of expected today that things are shipped using docker"

This is literally cargo culting by definition

@sir i don't think it can be called cargo culting if it's not what oneself believes to be better but what others want of you (and you are forced to do so to earn money). it could be argued that one shouldn't do that, but that's a bit unrealistic if you depend on the job/customer.

@bonifartius this is just cargo culting in more words. It's "expected" of you because of cargo culting. Ultimately you're doing it because it's been cargo culted, even if you don't believe in the cult

@sir sure, the things are cargo culted. i was just stating that it may be hard to not do it, even if you want to, because nearly the whole industry is sold on it and you've got to make a living 💁

@sir
Nix and guix often solve the same problems, but by reinventing the package manager, instead of manually bundling everything in a container.

I think nix and guix provide real improvements over classic package managers: rollbacks, easy installation of development dependencies, multiple version of the same program, etc...

I'm curious to hear your opinion on nix and guix

@ranfdev you functional programming as an OS twits need to get the hell out of my feed, god, you're like the rust evangelists but bigger in scope

@sir ... or, however, to unresolved problems of fixing sort of a "baseline" Linux distribution where you don't have to except, like, two dozens of different major and minor versions of virtually every shared library you could imagine, all more or less massively incompatible. Plus, they seem to solve another problem: Most common Linux distributions and packaging formats still expect software and packages to be installed with root permissions. To me, it rather is a pity that these issues (that ...

@sir ... at least to some point have been around and discussed for as long as, like, one decade and a half, haven't still seen "better" solutions than what we see today. In the end, flatpack, snap, appimage ("static builds on steroid") just seem like a layer of paint trying to badly cover up a whole load of more profound issues. 😐

@sir maybe i just want some piece of software that my distribution doesn't offer? how about i just complile it myself and fix 1500 compiler errors while i'm at it 😑?

like, i dunno how you real with that shit, but if an appimage is all i get, i will take it.

@sofia package it yourself, your distro accepts contributions from its users

@sir @sofia Not with that attitude.

Now to be kind but still honest, if you package yourself a software that a distribution does not have and contribute it to the distribution, not only you are doing a great service to yourself but also other people using that distribution who might need the software in question and don't know how to fix those 1500 compiling errors or don't have the time for it.

Helping others is neat.

@sofia I think the issue is that instead of relying on distributions for packaging as it worked for ever, now devs just push snaps/flats/appimage which although on paper look good and suppose to be exactly cutting edge with all the dependencies needed, very often become more outdated then the host OS. This situation also creates less repo maintainers ans less people packaging since everyone just does snaps now. Same as docker. Many projects do not provide deployment documentation as they just do docker and just tell you to use their image and not ask questions. Some projects will even not help you with issues the moment you say you do not run docker (eg. discourse).

@sir What do you mean with reckless runaway complexity?

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