FlatPak: I have roped off a corner of this highly secure facility for you to place your proprietary terrorist spyware "music player" into.

Do not cross the rope! And definitely do not press this switch I have conveniently provided within reach, which, if pressed, will remove the rope.

Security!

We have saved Linux on the desktop from the old and curmodgeny and bad Linux distributions! Hooray!

Oh? Not being able to easily install malware was a *feature* of those distros? Hah! Don't be silly. Just install spotify and we'll blast some tunes to drown out the sound of those gentlemen diligently carrying your private data off into that van over there.

@sir I mean, if people didn't *want* apps like Spotify it would be neat
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@xerz not everyone needs to be accomodated. Maybe having an operating system which cares about your privacy and cares about software freedom and doesn't make compromises on these fronts is actually a good thing maybe? If you want normie spyware just use Windows.

@sir I can tell you the same thing, if you don't want that just don't use it, no distro is forced to package or preinstall it and no user is forced to use it. But jumping to Linux is a big thing and gradual change is always better than an all or nothing.

@xerz correct, but at no point am I required to stop telling people that it's dumb and using it is a bad idea

@sir ...and they're also free to think it's convenient to have the software they want but kept safe(r) in its own place. Which is better than having no option at all, in which case most people would rather, indeed, stick to Windows than try any changes for the better. I know I wouldn't be able to make the people I know switch to Linux if it wasn't for Flatpak and web browsers doing their job in that regard.

@xerz they aren't thinking it through. It's better to call users to question the software they use than to accomodate laziness. Educate, don't accomodate.

@xerz all this whining about the anti-flatpak et al attitude driving users away is ridiculous

Of course it's driving users away. That's the point. I'm not going to roll out the red carpet for spotify et al just because they have users. Getting users is easy, it does not legitimize you or give you a pass to do harmful things.

@sir But if you want to make the best for as many people as possible... you want more users in the better platform. That's the thing.

You're not ONLY accommodating, you're letting people find their own pace and work it out as smoothly as possible. It's not a situation of this or that, you need to do both in an efficient way. So that's how I see Flatpak fitting it, first you can change the base system (which mind you, is already a huge improvement) and then it's much easier to change the programs.

@xerz "if you want to make the best for as many people as possible"

I don't want to do this. These goals are incompatible. I want to make the best possible thing, period. People can be taught why it's good, but accomodating people who want something bad makes the thing worse.

@sir Then go ahead and do the best thing possible. And do it for yourself, not for everyone, since you're already establishing your intentions are incompatible with those of the majority of people. As for me, I had to learn the hard way that things go gradual, so I want to build the best thing, but also make a smoother, more imperfect but more human path towards it, in a way.

@xerz @sir exactly, what's the point of building a perfect system if nobody uses it? it's like going off to live in the forest because a person is fed up with the problems of society.

@sir @xerz if creating the best experience for all users is just recreating all the terrible things that made them want to move then what is the point?

@sir @xerz Your attitude is sucks.

I was going to be polite about it, but reading some of your other comments here, nah, we can be blunt here. You are projecting a “I know better than you do, stupid” attitude that is basically the same thing Apple does and every bit as pretentious.

You are advocating for less freedom here, in the same of security. Where have I heard that before? Some guy wants to install spotify or whatever, its none of your damn business, its their system, not yours. Run your system however you want, and if they run afoul of their decisions then its on them, and you can smugly give them a “I told you so” if you please, but the decision to risk using a proprietary program isn’t yours to make.

Dude, I am with you and so much of it, right until you want to dictate what people can do on their systems.

@shebang @xerz I'm not dictating what people do on their systems. I'm telling them that certain things they could choose to do with their systems are stupid.

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