@sir

> The unrealized potential of federation drewdevault.com/2020/09/20/The

Strong agreement on the substantive point.

Strong disagreement on the analogy to the United Federation of Planets – which comes closer to a centralized dystopia than a true federation.

Ever notice how nearly all communication (even between civilians!) ends with a federation logo? Or how few private spacecraft there are? Or the way Starfleet frequently disregards privacy/casually takes actions that should need a warrant?

@codesections god I wish people would shut the fuck up about their personal beef with the federation and realize that it's just a well-known example of a federated system, fuck me

@sir

> god I wish people would shut the fuck up about their personal beef with the federation and realize that it's just a well-known example of a federated system, fuck me

Fair :D

I don't think it's a *good*/useful example though – there's a good chance that a reader is either 1) geeky enough to feel the sort of objections I mentioned, or 2) not familiar with the Federation as anything more than "the good guys from Star Trek" – which isn't enough to help explain federation

@sir

Also, I think it's more helpful for people to have the association

"advocates of federation" == people who want the Web to be more like email

than to have the association

"advocates of federation" == people who want the Web to be more like Star Trek

@sir The explosion in popularity of federation for 'social networks'(full ones, not simple email or irc), if it is ever to take place, will require a different implementation of ActivityPub(or other) than Mastodon/Pleroma/etc - probably one which is more Facebook-like.

Mastodon/Pleroma is a very good Twitter replacement but a Facebook replacement is what is required.

This will be much more likely to succeed if there is an accompanying advertising/propaganda push targeting Facebook/'normal internet' users.

@sir @dublinux I use friendica, and a few times people have asked me something like “wait, are *you* using facebook?”, so I guess it is pretty similar?
@dublinux @sir Friendica is probably your best bet for a Facebook replacement. It can federate with Mastodon and Pleroma as well.

Haven't really tied it though as I don't really need a Facebook replacement but it does seem to be okay form what I can tell.
@normandy @dublinux @sir I remember hearing about friendica, but I heard about XSS vulns and leaked DMs, I prefer to assume my posts are public to some extent anyway but maybe they fixed these vulnerabilities and it's all good now, I really dunno :cirno_laughing: I never used it either (small network, never took off like AP did)
@coyote Friendica uses AP IIRC. Like I've seen some posts form there end up on my timeline every now and then.
@normandy I thought friendica to AP was added recently and isn't how a friendica server talks to another friendica server? then again, fuck if I know
@coyote it like one of many it uses but I'm not sure which one is used for specifically communication between two Friendica instances. I don't know any more than you do, I don't use it either.

@sir at least in my view, it *seems like* federation has a tendency towards centralization. i'm quite interested to see the trajectory of the fediverse. will we end up with a handful of black holes or will things actually stay spread out without dying?

i would really like to see a drastic move towards simplicity when it comes to running these federated services. the systems are way too complicated, and include AP, Email, and XMPP here. they can't really be simplified either, we need new stuff.

@sir
cabal solves the uptime problem pretty well you may want to give it a go.

Super nodes solve the uptime problem with p2p while also giving nerdy sys admins something to put on there always on servers.

p2p software simplifies the deployment issue that federation has (complex esoteric software that makes you want to murder people when installing).

we already tried federated software and it gave us google / facebook / twittter / etc ..

AP sucks, but works for now..

@fleeky @sir I like to conceptualize federation as a P2P system that leases space to thin clients.

It highlights the problem that the majority of the devices on the internet are handicapped and can’t become full participants.

@sir also , no reason p2p and federated cannot play nice together.. does not have to be a binary choice.

@sir you could have used the UN or maritime law as an example of the governance of a federation, the second to last paragraph seems a little rushed

Aside from that, it's a pretty good argument for federation, what with the culture development and governance arguments

@sir do you know of any federated git forges? it'd be nice to do the PR/issue/etc workflow w/o havin to make a new account on all the small servers running, eg., gitea

@sir whaaaa ! Okay I'm gonna have to look further into this. git.sr.ht is the only instance right now, right?

@acdw no, there are several. It federates with lots of other systems which aren't running sr.ht, too.

The protocol is email.

@acdw @sir OOh cool! Sxmo is on there. I really hope more projects use this sort of thing.

@sir

without placing the burden on those non-technical users to set up, understand, maintain, or secure servers or esoteric software

Which typically implies that those users run the sysadmin’s application in a sandbox known as a Web browser, or execute untrusted code served from Google Play Market.

I understand the value of adoption, but I wouldn’t call it “secure”.

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