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@enigmatico @sir I did my best to avoid it but too many things enforce it now so I just avoid using it for private or serious, sensitive things.

@sir Tell me more?
(I was recently asked by some teacher I gave a privacy-talk to about Discord -- their students believed it was "private" and "they controlled the account" -- I told them "no way, Discord gets the data" but also I don't know much about Discord..)

@dielan Reading through this right now and it's a very well written article and I agree with it 100% so far. I have a vision impairment and had to use BetterDiscord and similar (which as you mentioned breaks ToS) in order to get a theme that I could actually see.

I don't use discord anymore, haven't for, gosh probably like 3 or 4 years now. I use Matrix now and personally have a much better time using it, even if others I get to use it call it "janky" and "scuffed" because "in discord it doesn't work like this." Yet they fail to recognize that discord has had far more time to get to where it is and also significantly more money than Matrix has.

Anyway, back to reading. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this and will be sending this to friends who use discord to try and educate them, even if it doesn't actually achieve anything.

@meejah @sir
@dielan @meejah @sir nice blogpost. i wasn't even aware the issues were as severe as described in the post. i mean sure i was aware discord collects a bunch of data, but i haven't thought it would be this much.

i personally never really liked discord. if i have the choice i prefer to selfhost or at least use a host from someone i personally trust. and for discord, i didn't really found any advantage in using it compared to other communication channels (i mean in regards to what i personally expect from such a software).

@meejah
you know all there is! you first check for open source, client and server. then you check for privacy leaks. and from what is left you check the end to end encryption, except if you run it on own infrastructure like mattermost for example.
@sir

@sir I wish but during this whole pandemic I have to use it e.g. for my studies partially.
Yes, really. This sucks.

@sir "but I can setup my own 'server'"

(I really hate this part of Discord. I always tell people that certain software is better than others because you can actually setup your own server. Now they trust Discord because they can setup their 'own' 'server')

@sir i wish I could but like everyone uses it and you can鈥檛 really take part in any communities on other platforms

@FloatingGhost wow, literally every word you said is bullshit, I'm kind of impressed

@sir wow amazing response friend, you engaged with absolutely nothing you鈥檙e truly a master at argumentation i bow to thee

@FloatingGhost @sir 'everyone' is not the right word, probably you are the only one who use it from people in this discussion ..
:hot_shit:

@helby @sir you know precisely what i mean, don鈥檛 pretend you don鈥檛 for a gotcha (tm) you know full well that the vast majority of online 鈥渃ommunities鈥 these days are on discord. is that good? no. is it true? yes.

@FloatingGhost @helby @sir there are definitely niche communities that you are regrettably tied to discord for if you want to participate. speedrunning is a big example one; try to contribute to, say, Okami or Golden Sun speedrunning and avoid discord (and/or twitch) and you will have a very hard time. I despise discord, don't understand the appeal, and wish people would drop it, but I don't want to drop every niche interest dependent on it

I think a more actionable statement here would be focused on a) not putting sensitive info on Discord b) not putting any communities over which you have control within a mile of Discord
@FloatingGhost @sir why would one care where are 'vast majority of online communities' :nttquestionmarkwhite:
One don't need to use Discord or other bullshit to be part of some community, play game, or whatever else he/she/whatever is doing ...
One don't need a facebook to be in touch with friends or family.

@helby @sir >One don鈥檛 need to use Discord or other bullshit to be part of some community

this is wrong and you know it, and you鈥檙e being incredibly disingenuous by suggesting otherwise. you鈥檙e either so far out from society as to not see it in which case your opinions for those closer to it are meaningless, or you鈥檙e not being truthful. EVERYTHING from game teams to translation groups to random friend groups these days is discord-based. i tried my utmost to be free of it, but everything is there.

@floatingghost @sir
>and you can鈥檛 really take part in any communities on other platforms
That's why I don't take part in any communities on other platforms.
Don't get me wrong I like having fun, but without a sword of damocles up my head.

@mangeurdenuage @sir isolation is not an valid alternative. 鈥渉ey people that want to do x, don鈥檛 do x鈥 is not valid.

@FloatingGhost @sir
I didn't say that you should do what I do. I'm just stating why I'm not participating.

@FloatingGhost @sir
This is the thing that bothers me too; everything and everybody is using Discord making it hard to escape it. Its only with niche groups when you get to use Matrix/Element or in rare cases Tox or IRC. I've set up a Jabber server, but nobody uses that anymore since its slowly dying.

@FloatingGhost @sir
The worst part of it all is that the issues are similar to chat apps on cellphones; there is functionally almost a 100% parity between all the different apps, but there is zero interconnectivity, zero means to communicate on with users on different platforms.

@FloatingGhost
i do ban non open source plattforms to vm's or customer owned devices. i can live well enough with that compromise.
@sir

@FloatingGhost @sir No you don't understand, you don't need any of the nuanced and layered interface and community detail and customisation that Discord has, these are just bloated antifeatures, if we just spread the word around Discord's terrible business practices and open snooping on their users the entire world will switch to CLI IRC clients overnight (after installing Gentoo鈩) with no additional incentivisation whatsoever.

If I tell myself this, I am absolved of any responsibility in potentia for helping to develop a viable E2E encrypted decentralised alternative, or for helping to bring a nascent one up to a usable standard of convenience and reliability.
@brother @FloatingGhost @sir

Realistically if you're in charge or the discord communities you are in you could bridge them to matrix but thats a matter of luck
@dielan @FloatingGhost @sir Shmibs vaguely walked me through the theory of it once, tbh I think my gang will just try out Element in the hope it's more technically reliable than Riot was, and bid a tearful farewell to channels.

But the point still stands, none of the atrocious tech giants have been held remotely to account for their behaviour because normies will pick convenience over freedom every time. It's tempting to leave them behind until you ask yourself where the thinkers of the future will share their knowledge: into a free pool of information designed to better humanity, or into the gilded fort of a gigantic unethical institution that will jealously patent and NDA everything that comes its way?

How long will it be before your employer has the rights to ALL your inventions and discoveries, regardless of whose premises you partook in them on (especially with distance working as the norm) or what hours you did them in? How long before an off-the-clock Google鈩 Physicist庐 has his 1am insomniac passion project stolen and copyrighted by his employer, its workings obfuscated, its chassis bloated with surveillance and analytics?

Winning over normies is the entire fight. That's why Microsoft have spent 30 years winning while the sorry crew fighting the good fight have been having public meltdowns over not having the right thermostat setting for their FOSS talk or doxing each other over IRC specification disputes.
@brother
Yeah i'm not sure if element is ready for prime time but i've been using it a lot lately (fluffychat on mobile, element only on desktop) and I used to hate this thing, now I use it everyday. Its really come a long way.

@FloatingGhost @sir
@brother
Oh sorry i went to sleep before you sent this

Its a matrix app like element. It implements most of the same features but in the case of mobile (not desktop) its better than element in my opinion

https://fluffychat.im/en

@FloatingGhost @sir
@brother @dielan @FloatingGhost @sir Element is going to implement Discord-style groups by the end of the year afaik.

But yeah, normies will never care about privacy or security.
@dielan @brother @FloatingGhost @sir No you cant because matrix is a goddamn trash fire, it doesnt even have voice channels or a properly working backend yet.

Nobody wants to use that shit, not even me.
@Rude
I would have said this myself not even 6 months ago.

I think its ok now but in 6 more months might even be worth shilling for at the rate it's improving. As of now i only plan to use it to talk to people already on it. Don't bother trying it again just yet
@FloatingGhost @brother @sir
@dielan @Rude @FloatingGhost @brother @sir This. If you watch their GitHub you can see there's a lot of major changes in the works.
@dielan @FloatingGhost @brother @sir If/When they fix the ridiculous way they are doing group encryption, add voice channels, and have a better implementation than synapse only then will i consider touching matrix again.

As is xmpp is far easier to use, and more widely used. Even if its a dying protocol with very few functional clients.
@Rude
I also think things will get a lot better when the synapse alternatives are more finished and you probably wont be waiting long
@FloatingGhost @brother @sir
@Rude @dielan @FloatingGhost @brother @sir What do you dislike about group e2ee?

Voice channels would be nice though improvements to Jitsi should be nearly sufficient.

You might also be interested in Construct, though it's not by any means finished.
@mewmew @FloatingGhost @brother @dielan @sir

Unless something drastically has changed the way that group encryption is done involves making encrypted sessions for each user that connects to an encrypted group chat, which excludes anyone who wasnt online from the history of conversation among other negative caveats. What was originally proposed was a simple client to server encryption model "like git", which im not sure why it was implemented as it currently is instead. I would much prefer a user have singularly managed public key that is used to authenticate to the server and that simply grant access to the data from the chat as long as that public key is still accepted.

Jitsi is a shim and doesnt suit the usage case of having static persistent voice channels, skype isnt a good alternative to discord or mumble either.

Im still watching many matrix projects including Construct because i dont think the protocol itself is the issue.
@Rude @FloatingGhost @brother @dielan @sir ...that's not e2ee though? unless I'm misunderstanding you. you can make groups which aren't e2ee.
@mewmew @FloatingGhost @brother @dielan @sir OMEMO handles e2ee group chats the same as one on one chats which feels much more sane. I want that when e2ee is needed, and 99.9% of the other time i just want "git like" groups where data is encrypted until authenticated to the server itself.

@sir This. I instantly stop reading a project鈥檚 readme if they have Discord linked in it.

@sir Get everyone to migrate to a better client, and I'll gladly do

@sir why, and what else would you recommend?

@sir barely using it nowadays myself, and I'd love to use stuff like Matrix more, but my contact list there is pretty barren as well

@pixel @sir meh, network effects are so hard to overcome.

Then again, we're on the Fediverse, so maybe there's hope?

@Argus @pixel @sir would be easier if people put contacts in their bio

@sir Alternative with similar functionality? (No, Slack is none.)

@sir And now imagine a non-tech Twitch streamer building a community of non-tech people in IRC鈥

There is no sync with Twitch for roles (there are no roles), there are no separate rooms, there are no voice rooms, there are no links to easily give access to the viewers, there are no notifications for "offline-messages" without bouncers鈥

Agreed, for tech-people IRC might be a suitable platform for communication but for the main target-group of Discord, IRC is not suitable at all鈥

@knut "non-tech Twitch streamer" is not a well represented demographic among the Mastodon followers to whom I was speaking.

@sir True, though it's heavily damaged IRC鈥 It's partially IRC and partially something looking like IRC鈥

But in the end the Twitch chat is nice to chat while the stream is on鈥 While it's off it's not suited to build a community, play together, have voice chats, post announcements etc.鈥

And sadly Discord did a good job filling that space - while their tech is well鈥 difficult (speaking of not deleting attachments and so on) - and I don't see real alternatives to that鈥 馃槥

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