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"We moved to GitHub because everyone's already there"

"We shut down the mailing lists because most of our users prefer to use GitLab in their web browser"

"We're rewriting in Rust because we don't really have any non-x86_64 users"

"We're leaving IRC because Discord is more user-friendly"

What all of these arguments have in common is that they exclude people, centralize infrastructure, and eschew free software for proprietary solutions, all in the name of some ill-defined measure of "progress".

· brutaldon · 41 · 188 · 211

@sir Like cloudflare, it sucks, but it's convenient, so people use it despite it being horseshit

@sir the discord one especially frustrates me, open source communities abandoning an open standard in favor of a shitty app designed for gaming that is notoriously terrible at doing anything right.

@nihilazo @sir Yes, ESPECIALLY when there is #Matrix, which is extremely user-friendly these days. The IM version of the Fediverse pretty much.

@sir not in the name of progress but simply for convenience imo, an average joe is more likely to be familiar with discord and github that with irc and mailing lists
i think we need more successful and popular enough projects which use open decentralized solutions for communication so people would be forced to learn and use them

@zepsylonum we don't have to use them just because they're there. Fun fact, we've been doing FOSS development for decades without any of this garbage

@sir that's not what i really meant. i was trying to say that more opportunities to use irc/mailing lists/etc for *new* developers should be created, like widely used software projects with email-driven development so devs would be forced to get adapted to this workflow; more tutorials explaining why this way is superior and how to setup everything (thanks for git-send-email.io, btw), things like that
simply saying "github bad, use email" won't be as effective

@sir@cmpwn.com @zepsylonum@blob.cat just because you did it for a long time doesn't mean it's good. Mailinglists are something that excludes a lot of users, the same is with IRC. Its simply not a thing that is used by younger people and so they need to learn a bunch of stuff only to contribute and thats a problem, because it might end that they dont for the reason that's not worth it. I'm completely for open solutions but they need to be easy to get into in the first place or they can die for good. Sorry to say it this way.

@fabis_cafe @sir @zepsylonum "they need to learn a bunch of stuff only to contribute and that's a problem".

You can't contribute to free software without "learning a bunch of stuff", no matter if it's hosted on GitHub or Sourcehut or uses IRC or Discord. The problem is that we are being lazy after we learn one method and think of it like the "default" state, everything else requiring "work".

@happybeing FASCINATING, THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT

@sir @happybeing Dude, he's literally just telling you a fact. He didn't insult your family or anything.

@x_cli @sir is because of the comment about non-x86_64 users, which I don't understand.

@happybeing I meant being yelled at. I understand from other comments I read afterwards that this person is saying the cross compilation ain't working to their liking. I personnaly have no opinion about the cross compilation issue, but I am blocking @sir for spewing hate every other comment.

@x_cli @sir yeah, maybe he is in a bad mood, or doesn't like challenge, it.. who cares.

@sir

I think what the ease-of-use arguments consistently either fail to realize or don't acknowledge is that a lot of these projects don't have the centralized backing and resources of corporations and the like.

Like, – for whatever elements current users may like about the currently available software – I have no doubt that more user-friendly ones that are _entirely_ libre and open would rapidly and widely get used.

But we need to build them, first; and we don't have corporation resources.

@WammKD @sir Yeah. It is a non-starter to say "Just use the terminal... we all did it!" when their is GUI alternatives that look like they were designed sometime after the Clinton administration (I am looking at you, mIRC...)

And the designer world is NOTORIOUSLY non-libre thanks to deep discounts given by Adobe and their ilk to unis.

@happymoomoo @sir Hmm actually in my surroundings, hardly anybody still uses Facebook

@jaj @happymoomoo @sir that would be a lovely environment to be in, but in mine you are mandated to use WhatsApp, Facebook and Instagram in a descending order of importance.

@polychrome @happymoomoo @sir I recently saw this FOSS android app to scrape Facebook events, maybe it can help you: NoFb Event Scraper (Import Facebook-Events to the calendar) - f-droid.org/packages/com.akdev

@jaj @polychrome @happymoomoo @sir thanks! it's bullshit that Facebook removed the ics feed for the events.

@polychrome @happymoomoo @sir WhatsApp is still a big thing but I get more and more people to use signal.

@happymoomoo @sir zoom and twitch are pissing me off in particular lately cause too many people I know use them... Twire is a good way to access twitch (on f-droid) if you have to but I'd rather people use different tools to share streams without the proprietary bs.

@happymoomoo @sir I take comfort in the fact my site has amazing Google placement for reasons I still don't understand and include nothing resembling intentional SEO.

If I could just release a game on it, that would be stellar, but at least I can offer some free tools. XD

@sir I don’t understand why you dislike rust… But i don’t know C and Go(and you seems to like them as much as you dislike Rust)

@sir “We can depend on projects that are difficult or impossible to compile. We’ll just tell our users to download the binary!”

“Nobody needs to know how their phone works.”

@sir Doesn't Rust support platforms other than x86_64 too? Like ARM, some microcontrollers etc.?

@sir Just like with your rage over Mozilla's US v Google press-release, your inclusion of Rust in this otherwise reasonable list is irrational.

Rust is free software, it doesn't force use of centralized infrastructure, and it's not any worse than Go wrt cross-platform compatibility (e.g. buildd.debian.org/status/packa vs buildd.debian.org/status/packa).

Is your problem with Rust really rooted in its shortcomings as a language, or in Mozilla's decision to integrate Pocket into Firefox in 2015?

@angdraug name all of the architectures you've ever used Rust on

I bet it's x86_64 and maybe arm64. I doubt it includes i686 or even ARMv7.

As someone who actually HAS used Rust on a variety of platforms, I can assure you that its portability story is pretty garbage. Go has, in my experience, been much better in that regard. But it doesn't matter, because this is a strawman: no one is rewriting codebases from Go to Rust. The real alternative that I am talking about here is C.

@sir @angdraug A language which, mind you, is infamous for being flexible enough to be compiled on just about anything you can throw at it (see for example https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-11-15-c-portability.html )

@allison @sir @angdraug You can also go a step higher with a language that has been compiled to C, C++, Java, Ada, and SystemC (off the top of my head) xtuml.org/

@lwriemen @allison @angdraug high level languages with another high level language as an intermediate target is one of the most mind-bogglingly stupid ideas that I have ever been astonished to watch catch on.

This is part of why I think Nim is fucking stupid.

@sir If you believe this is a similar prospect to compiling java to C, then you are mistaken. Using an xtUML model compiler is more akin to compiling C to machine code.

If you want to stick to your assertion, then I have no time for fools.

@allison @angdraug

@allison @sir @angdraug I like C. It's one of the few languages with anti pedophile features built in by default. Which is quite obvious in retrospect, when you realize it's the predecessor to HolyC

@sir I've read sr.ht source code and I have huge respect for what you've built there, but not enough to just take your word on a topic that has clearly become a personal crusade for you. Maybe you're right, but if you care about this so much you should have data to back it up, not the "I am better than you" appeal to authority.

And it's not a strawman to compare your stance on Rust with your stance on Go: you use and endorse Go, and you trash Rust every day. Rust vs C is the strawman here.

@angdraug what I did here is not an "I am better than you appeal to authority", but in fact, something we call "a citation of expertise"

I don't necessarily advocate for Go for the same reasons I reject Rust. You're grasping at straws.

@sir @angdraug

Pardon ignorant me rolling in from the wider fediverse, but what's so bad about Rust?

I've overall heard primarily good opinions about it and was considering picking it up as my next language to learn.

@smivan @sir Drew's criticism of Rust: drewdevault.com/2019/03/25/Rus

I agree with parts of it, I also agree with parts of this rebuttal of it: beyermatthias.de/blog/2019/03/

After recently learning both Go and Rust, I found things to dislike about both. Some common (packaging), some different.

@sir I don't know what "citation of expertise" means, do you have a link?

In drewdevault.com/2019/09/08/Eno you don't express a preference over Go v Rust.

Yet you picked Rust rather than Go for your "not a good C replacement" piñata both here and in your blog post from last year (and in other places that I'm too lazy to dig up).

Do you see a bigger trend with projects rewriting themselves in Rust than in Go?

@angdraug citing expertise in that I *have* worked with Rust on many architectures, therefore I have experience to draw from when making statements about it and you, I believe, do not.

I recommend Go for some networking programs, which has some intersection with what people want to use Rust for, and some interesction with what people want to use C for.

@angdraug and I never mentioned Go in this thread in the first place, why do you people keep dragging the fucking Go strawman into this thread

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