"We moved to GitHub because everyone's already there"
"We shut down the mailing lists because most of our users prefer to use GitLab in their web browser"
"We're rewriting in Rust because we don't really have any non-x86_64 users"
"We're leaving IRC because Discord is more user-friendly"
What all of these arguments have in common is that they exclude people, centralize infrastructure, and eschew free software for proprietary solutions, all in the name of some ill-defined measure of "progress".
@sir Like cloudflare, it sucks, but it's convenient, so people use it despite it being horseshit
@sir the discord one especially frustrates me, open source communities abandoning an open standard in favor of a shitty app designed for gaming that is notoriously terrible at doing anything right.
@sir ... Slack...
@zepsylonum we don't have to use them just because they're there. Fun fact, we've been doing FOSS development for decades without any of this garbage
@email@example.com @firstname.lastname@example.org just because you did it for a long time doesn't mean it's good. Mailinglists are something that excludes a lot of users, the same is with IRC. Its simply not a thing that is used by younger people and so they need to learn a bunch of stuff only to contribute and thats a problem, because it might end that they dont for the reason that's not worth it. I'm completely for open solutions but they need to be easy to get into in the first place or they can die for good. Sorry to say it this way.
You can't contribute to free software without "learning a bunch of stuff", no matter if it's hosted on GitHub or Sourcehut or uses IRC or Discord. The problem is that we are being lazy after we learn one method and think of it like the "default" state, everything else requiring "work".
@sir BTW Rust supports multiple CPU architectures.
@happybeing FASCINATING, THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT
I think what the ease-of-use arguments consistently either fail to realize or don't acknowledge is that a lot of these projects don't have the centralized backing and resources of corporations and the like.
Like, – for whatever elements current users may like about the currently available software – I have no doubt that more user-friendly ones that are _entirely_ libre and open would rapidly and widely get used.
But we need to build them, first; and we don't have corporation resources.
@WammKD @sir Yeah. It is a non-starter to say "Just use the terminal... we all did it!" when their is GUI alternatives that look like they were designed sometime after the Clinton administration (I am looking at you, mIRC...)
And the designer world is NOTORIOUSLY non-libre thanks to deep discounts given by Adobe and their ilk to unis.
@polychrome @happymoomoo @sir I recently saw this FOSS android app to scrape Facebook events, maybe it can help you: NoFb Event Scraper (Import Facebook-Events to the calendar) - https://f-droid.org/packages/com.akdev.nofbeventscraper
@happymoomoo @sir oh look here's spotify becoming merchants of eyeballs too, right on time,
@sir I don’t understand why you dislike rust… But i don’t know C and Go(and you seems to like them as much as you dislike Rust)
@sir “We can depend on projects that are difficult or impossible to compile. We’ll just tell our users to download the binary!”
“Nobody needs to know how their phone works.”
@sir Doesn't Rust support platforms other than x86_64 too? Like ARM, some microcontrollers etc.?
@sir and then there is NetBSD.
@sir Just like with your rage over Mozilla's US v Google press-release, your inclusion of Rust in this otherwise reasonable list is irrational.
Rust is free software, it doesn't force use of centralized infrastructure, and it's not any worse than Go wrt cross-platform compatibility (e.g. https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=hugo&suite=sid vs https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=rust-sequoia-openpgp).
Is your problem with Rust really rooted in its shortcomings as a language, or in Mozilla's decision to integrate Pocket into Firefox in 2015?
@angdraug name all of the architectures you've ever used Rust on
I bet it's x86_64 and maybe arm64. I doubt it includes i686 or even ARMv7.
As someone who actually HAS used Rust on a variety of platforms, I can assure you that its portability story is pretty garbage. Go has, in my experience, been much better in that regard. But it doesn't matter, because this is a strawman: no one is rewriting codebases from Go to Rust. The real alternative that I am talking about here is C.
@sir I've read sr.ht source code and I have huge respect for what you've built there, but not enough to just take your word on a topic that has clearly become a personal crusade for you. Maybe you're right, but if you care about this so much you should have data to back it up, not the "I am better than you" appeal to authority.
And it's not a strawman to compare your stance on Rust with your stance on Go: you use and endorse Go, and you trash Rust every day. Rust vs C is the strawman here.
@angdraug what I did here is not an "I am better than you appeal to authority", but in fact, something we call "a citation of expertise"
I don't necessarily advocate for Go for the same reasons I reject Rust. You're grasping at straws.
@smivan @sir Drew's criticism of Rust: https://drewdevault.com/2019/03/25/Rust-is-not-a-good-C-replacement.html
I agree with parts of it, I also agree with parts of this rebuttal of it: https://beyermatthias.de/blog/2019/03/26/rust-is-one-of-the-best-c-replacements-we-currently-have/
After recently learning both Go and Rust, I found things to dislike about both. Some common (packaging), some different.
@sir I don't know what "citation of expertise" means, do you have a link?
In https://drewdevault.com/2019/09/08/Enough-to-decide.html you don't express a preference over Go v Rust.
Yet you picked Rust rather than Go for your "not a good C replacement" piñata both here and in your blog post from last year (and in other places that I'm too lazy to dig up).
Do you see a bigger trend with projects rewriting themselves in Rust than in Go?
@angdraug citing expertise in that I *have* worked with Rust on many architectures, therefore I have experience to draw from when making statements about it and you, I believe, do not.
I recommend Go for some networking programs, which has some intersection with what people want to use Rust for, and some interesction with what people want to use C for.
@angdraug and I never mentioned Go in this thread in the first place, why do you people keep dragging the fucking Go strawman into this thread
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