Please please please

From the bottom of my heart, I am begging you, dear reader

Install 9front on a VM or on your old ThinkPad and spend this weekend messing around with it.



I am dead serious, *please* do this. Please...


Until everyone has experience with Plan 9, the software ecosystem is doomed to keep making awful solutions to everything. Garbage like Docker wouldn't even exist if college CS courses were taught on Plan 9.

The problem with Plan 9 is that everyone comes away from it trying to bring its ideas into Linux, instead of weeping with exestential dread at how we got to a universe where this platonic ideal operating system is not the norm, and wondering how we may ever redeem ourselves in the light of our lord

@sir the curse of drivers. How elegant an OS is doesn't matter if it won't talk to my hardware.

@tidux you should always choose your hardware with software support in mind, not the other way around

@sir I do make sure all my hardware works with Linux, and most of it works with the BSDs as well (including my USB SDR device), but 9front is still pretty limited in what it can do with hardware. I don't want to spend my time writing kernel drivers for hardware that already works on half a dozen other Free Software OSes.

@sir @tidux
only because we're in a pathological world.
In an ideal world, all hardware would come with full specs, so you could write your own drivers for the hardware you own, and then send them upstream.

Also, in an ideal world, ioctl never existed.

@wolf480pl @sir @tidux

Ring the bell that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There's a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

- It turns _some_ files into something more than a stream of bytes.
- The ioctl numbers and arguments depend heavily on what kinda file you're operating on. You can't have generic tools for ioctl, because each device has different ioctls.
- It's a kitchen sink for things which should've been separate syscalls, separate files, or some other, better-designed API, but it was easier to just whack another ioctl

@sir you can either:
- be sad and lose the will to live
- act and try to make your reality a bit closer to the ideal

which do you think is more productive?


um, plan9 has good stuff in it but a2 oberon os is far better.

@sir Plan 9's obsolescence is similar to that of platonic idealism's obsolescence: interesting, consistent ideas in and of themselves, but they fail to apply to the world around them.

If Plan 9 had decent Posix and/or Linux syscall&libc emulation and good library support, it might've had a chance. But a platform like Plan 9 / 9front today causes way too much friction than supportable when collaborating with the wider world, which requires supporting all that terrible and inconsisten APIs&ABIs.

@cadadr "if Plan 9 had all of the things which are bad about everything else, it might have worked"

If plan 9 was linux then it would not be plan 9

@sir Linux isn't Windows because there's Wine. FreeBSD isn't Linux because it support Linux binaries and drivers to an extent.

The best Plan 9 today is plan9ports, because one can do more than contemplate it's marvels.

@cadadr @sir

the best plan 9 today is 9front. plan9port gives you some of the plan9 userspace, but you lose all of the advantages that come from consistency and simplicity across the entire system. linux isn't simple or consistent and you can't make it simple *or* consistent by adding more code to the mix.

@sir if CS courses were taught on Plan9 that would immediately and drastically change my opinion on CS degrees

@sir omg why didn't I know this? FQA0 literally describes docker as a feature and everything that is wrong with networking.

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